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fenderchris2
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Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 37
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 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| fenderchris2 wrote: | Things are not looking good here are they? - I'm nervous about installing WL7 if the learning curve is going to be as big as it sounds and with no user manual.
PG - I haven't received the 'boxed' version I ordered yet, but can I get a refund if I send it back unopened ? |
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PG, I certainly would not mind paying for a proper manual (as good as the previous WL manuals), but if you want to survive this debacle, retain existing users and interest new users, you are going to have to make it available very soon. WL is not a toy - it needs proper documentation for all levels of user.
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wizardofice
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am very concerned that Steinberg has lost touch with the customer base to the point that they actually believe that a real manual is neither needed or expected. A help system is nice but does not replace a manual. There will be no words that will convince the customers that a help system can replace a manual. Continuously telling us how to use the help system changes nothing. Only a manual will give the customers what they need and expect.
Good try at saving money guys but it is not going to work. I have given up. I will not use wavelab 7 until I have a manual. Whether Steinberg produces it or someone else does (which would be so embarrassing). Too bad too, I have for a long time wanted to upgrade from essentials to the full version and was waiting for 7 to come out. Now I will have to put that off further still because there will be no point in purchasing a $500 dollar program with no documentation. I am very disapointed.
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wizardofice
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| PG wrote: | | @pwhodges, you can get specific help by using "What's this" on a menu item. This is good to learn what a function is about. But you are right, "All tracks editing" should been mentionned in the manual. |
Please lets be consistant here. There is no manual. Only a pdf copy of the help menu. Not the same thing.
As stated above I too would pay for a manual...a real manual...although It still seems that it should be included at no cost to us, I would still pay if I had too because I need it.
To PG....please understand I do not dislike the program and so much want to use it, and do not wish to be difficult or mean spirited, but I, like many others, have become very frustrated at the lack of documentation and the impression we are getting that there will be no better manual in the near future.
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chase
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Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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On the bright side, it looks like no-one posting on the forum is going to be upset at being brushed aside by a brusque "RTFM". 
I like manuals, with everything set out in a logical order. I've come to expect the provision of a pdf manual rather than paper (to save costs), but, in those circumstances, I appreciate it when there's a printed manual available to buy separately.
As an infrequent user of WL, I don't ever expect to have much of this huge offerring at my fingertips, but I do need somewhere to go both to get an understanding of the system and to find out the detail of how to do the things I need to do.
I haven't bought the WL7 upgrade yet. The realisation that there's not a proper manual is disconcerting and making me hesitate. I'll keep an open mind for a while - hoping that the professional users who're feeling cast adrift by the absence of a proper manual will come back and say that actually it's alright once you get over the shock. and you can learn all you need just as readily from what has been provided as you can from a conventional fully-detailed reference document. |
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greggybud
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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When Steinberg Cubase FINALLY after many years of complaints, included a 670 page PRINTED manual that gave in depth documentation and explained HOW to do things with great illustrations, I thought to myself this is a company I'm happy to continue paying upgrades.
But now Steinberg goes back to their old ways of not printing a manual, and not even a complete PDF is available?
I can only guess they wanted to keep a low $99 upgrade price to convert as many people from 6 to7 as possible. After all $99 is a very good deal assuming it get used often. Count me as one who would pay more for a printed detailed manual similar to the Wavelab 6 manual. |
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Vocalpoint
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| chase wrote: | | I'll keep an open mind for a while - hoping that the professional users who're feeling cast adrift by the absence of a proper manual will come back and say that actually it's alright once you get over the shock. and you can learn all you need just as readily from what has been provided as you can from a conventional fully-detailed reference document. |
Well - I am on Day 3 now...and the more I mess around with this version - the more I realize just how good I had it with v6. I have spent close to 12 hours a day in front of a screen since 1997 - so learning software just comes naturally and I haven't opened a manual on Windows 7, Office 2010, Nuendo 5, Sony Vegas, Soundforge and host of other new versions of my go-to stuff....but this one - boy - I just don't know.
My vibe today is "why is this UI so busy - so overly crammed with everything?" Menus that have 15 items on them...with no apparent logical grouping...The spectrum editor tab has to have about 50 controls on it - where to even begin to understand what this does...?
Today - I was trying to come to grips with Control Windows and one thing I have a real distaste for already is the overweight Master Section - but then I found a way to put it a Control Window...so that's cool. But then I shut down WL and reopen it - and instead of seeing an interface of any kind (after spending 30 minutes arranging and saving a workspace) all I get at startup is my Master section in a Control Window....jeez...nothing but more clicking and more clicking
Today's questions..
Why does the File Browser NOT dock to a Tab group in a Control Window?
Why does the File Browser have that useless Audio Regions panel welded to it's side that cannot be removed or closed?
Why do the new tabbed windows (like File Browser etc) use a nice new tab control while the Audio File edit windows use the same old clunky 1994 control we have seen - well since 1994?
Fonts have zero consistency. Some are big..some are small...and of course MS Sans Serif is again welded in every dialog...and none can be adjusted or changed.
And so it goes...
I must be honest - outside of the Batch Processor - which is still the best there is (and I like the new design) - I am seriously happy that I only paid 99 bucks for this...I am now officially back to 6 for the short term and will be weighting my overall editing options seriously. I know this sounds negative and I know that I am just getting started...but I cannot recall a time that I have been more frustrated with a new app than this...
Gonna have to look around for that patience I put somewhere...
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PG
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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@Vocalpoint
>The spectrum editor tab has to have about 50 controls on it
> where to even begin to understand what this does...?
This is to have all functions available immediatly rather than using a popup menu as in 6, which is slower.
And all buttons can be assigned a shortcut.
>Why does the File Browser NOT dock to a Tab group in a Control Window?
A file browser is displaying files of a given type (eg. Waves, or montage, etc), this is why it is attached to a specific workspace, not the Control window.
>Why does the File Browser have that useless Audio Regions
> panel welded to it's side that cannot be removed or closed?
It is not useless: if you select an audio file with regions, these regions appear in that panel and can be dragged and drop where you like. Quite handy.
The panel can be hidden by dragging the separator line towards the side.
>Why do the new tabbed windows (like File Browser etc) use a nice new tab control
> while the Audio File edit windows use the same old clunky 1994 control we have seen - well since 1994?
I don't see what you mean. WaveLab uses native controls, ie. Windows 7 standard controls under Windows 7, and nothing old.
>Fonts have zero consistency. Some are big..some are small...and of course
> MS Sans Serif is again welded in every dialog...and none can be adjusted or changed.
WaveLab 7 uses the standard Windows 7 GUI fonts. I don't see a problem here. And I don't see where you see font size problems either. Maybe you have a screenshot to show.
Philippe
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Vocalpoint
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| PG wrote: | This is to have all functions available immediately rather than using a popup menu as in 6, which is slower.
And all buttons can be assigned a shortcut. |
This dialog is a disaster and I cannot see how it can be any faster.
>Why does the File Browser NOT dock to a Tab group in a Control Window?
| PG wrote: | | A file browser is displaying files of a given type (eg. Waves, or montage, etc), this is why it is attached to a specific workspace, not the Control window. |
Fair enough...I think I get that one now.
>Why does the File Browser have that useless Audio Regions
> panel welded to it's side that cannot be removed or closed?
| PG wrote: | | It is not useless: if you select an audio file with regions, these regions appear in that panel and can be dragged and drop where you like. Quite handy. |
And if I don't care about regions? Or never use them?
| PG wrote: | | The panel can be hidden by dragging the separator line towards the side. |
This bit of knowledge required forensic skills to discover...unless you place your cursor right on that separator - there is no indicator whatsoever that it can be compressed? Are you expecting every user to just know how this works? Still think we need a manual?
>Why do the new tabbed windows (like File Browser etc) use a nice new tab control while the Audio File edit windows use the same old clunky 1994 control we have seen - well since 1994?
| PG wrote: | | I don't see what you mean. WaveLab uses native controls, ie. Windows 7 standard controls under Windows 7, and nothing old. |
You don't see what I mean? Well look closely:
Here is a cap of the current tab strip - which does in fact use a modern tab strip control as in Windows 7.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9491/win7tabs.png
And this is a cap of the tabs included along the bottom of a audio file in the editor
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/6333/windows94tabs.png
If you are trying to tell me these are using the same control - this makes no sense since they cannot be the same control. This control is identical to that of V6 and v5 and so on. It's crude, jagged 1990's style tabs are a dead giveaway. And I would like to know - if everything was supposedly "refreshed" why these ancient crude tabs are still in the program and the audio file dialog - you are not using modern Windows 7 tabs?
>Fonts have zero consistency. Some are big..some are small...and of course MS Sans Serif is again welded in every dialog...and none can be adjusted or changed. >
| PG wrote: | | WaveLab 7 uses the standard Windows 7 GUI fonts. I don't see a problem here. And I don't see where you see font size problems either. Maybe you have a screenshot to show. |
Windows 7 modern font standards utilize the Segoe family, Calibri family and others. Yes - Microsoft got very lazy and left MS Sans Serif in a few system dialogs but it has been largely banished. However - since there is no font control in here - I guess I can deal with it.
Just unsure of some of your choices on several parts of the UI here.
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AlexanderOstuni
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| PG wrote: |
It is not useless: if you select an audio file with regions, these regions appear in that panel and can be dragged and drop where you like. Quite handy.
The panel can be hidden by dragging the separator line towards the side.
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Hi,
I don't need that either, but wenn I hide it and safe that as a workspace, the next time I open that workspace, the panel is there again. It seems, that is not stored in the workspace.
Cheers
Alex
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Selber feiern! Weg kucken!
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PG
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Posts: 3396
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:24 am Post subject: |
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>And if I don't care about regions? Or never use them?
Then hide it.
> It seems, that is not stored in the workspace
Yes and no. If you reopen WaveLab and the file browser is not the front tab, the setting is remembered. Else not. Something to fix, ok.
>And this is a cap of the tabs included along the bottom of a audio file in the editor
This difference is of course on purpose. Two reasons for this:
* the bottom tabs must have a smaller height that the standard style, to fit in the available room
* the style difference is a visual hint to differentiate a different functionality.
Philippe
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AlexanderOstuni
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
how can I change the order of the tabs ?
Haven't found this so far...
Cheers
Alex
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Warum immer nur zuschauen, wenn andere feiern.
Selber feiern! Weg kucken!
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PG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Yes for the documents (drag and drop of tabs)
No for the tool windows. But I think this should be good to implement.
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pwhodges
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Posts: 390
Location: Oxford, UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| AlexanderOstuni wrote: | | how can I change the order of the tabs ? |
For now you can close them all and then open in the order you want...
Paul |
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Wodehouse
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Just a thought. Instead of PG having to field so many questions concerning getting WL7 running, would it be a good idea, instead, to produce a manual ?!
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playz123
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Posts: 693
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Wodehouse wrote: | Just a thought. Instead of PG having to field so many questions concerning getting WL7 running, would it be a good idea, instead, to produce a manual ?!
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LOL....Yes, I think that point has been well made by now! 
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PG
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't write the manuals...
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wizardofice
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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It would have sure made your life (and ours) a lot easier if Steinberg had done the common sense thing and produced a manual. Not too late though, better late than never. Some of us are waiting with open arms and would love to fall in love with Wavelab 7.
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playz123
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| PG wrote: | | I don't write the manuals... |
Although I think most people here probably know that, and requests for a manual by most of us are really being directed at Steinberg, that's definitely worth mentioning and clarifying......in case someone gets the wrong idea. In addition, I'm also fairly certain most users are extremely grateful to you Phillipe for responding so kindly to all our questions about WL7. That can't be an easy job, and it is certainly demanding as well. Thank you for all your hard work...and please do pass on all our comments re the manual to "Steinberg".
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Svenne
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Interesting.... I just noticed that WaveLab 7 has been removed from the documents downloads (Essential and LE are still there though). What could this mean? "I have a dream..." that Steinbergs marketing department are actually reading this forum and has decided to produce a proper manual. If this is so (and only then), from all of us to all of you... THANK YOU! |
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fenderchris2
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Is it still possible to 'Create Basic CD' in WL7 ?
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Uwe Huebner
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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@fenderchris2: Yes it is still possible to create basic audio cd´s.
Last edited by Uwe Huebner on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PG
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. This is a Tool window part of the Audio File Workspace.
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Uwe Huebner
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| @Svenne: the site was temporarily offline for editing reasons. A WaveLab 6 to WaveLab 7 FAQ has been uploaded. |
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PG
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JAH!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: Please, A full printed manual!!! |
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This situation is really worrying me!
I have ordered the update boxed version with a lot of good expectatives, but with this post some of them is fallen down!!!!
From my opinion and my point of view is very simple!!!
Most of us are demanding and asking for a printed manual, and that's all!!!!
any discussion beyond that surplus!!!!
For me, and it's for sure that for more than anyone, it's frustrating that after 4 years between WL6 and WL7 we couldn't find a detailed printed manual, or at least as well in PDF!!! There is no excuses!!!
All the help Steinberg wants to give us by any way is welcome, but I repeat that we are demanding for a Printed manual!!!!
...but what is really worrying me is that they are trying to convince us that we don't need that, and it's enough what they are giving us without giving the possibility to find a solution; the message I catch from them is:
"there is no full printed manual and we don't want to make it, Be content with what we offer"
Disgusting!!!!
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PG
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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* There is a printed startup guide (I ignore its size).
* Far from everything in WaveLab 7 is new and to be re-learnt (even if that could be the 1st impression).
* The in-application Help is far more developped than any past WaveLab version.
Philippe
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Svenne
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Uwe Huebner wrote: | | @Svenne: the site was temporarily offline for editing reasons. A WaveLab 6 to WaveLab 7 FAQ has been uploaded. |
Pity. I guess it was hoping for too much to think that Steiberg might listen to their customers, after all.
| PG wrote: | | * Far from everything in WaveLab 7 is new and to be re-learnt (even if that could be the 1st impression). |
Now you are forgetting one crucial thing. Steinberg makes a big deal of that WaveLab is now available for the Mac aswell as for windows. For all Mac users EVERYTHING is new and has to be learned!!!! You don't seriously expect us to use the version 6 manual with version 7, do you?
As for the highly developed help-system. Please see my previous posting. I just repeat: An in-line help-system has never and will never replace a manual. They serve two radically different purposes. You wouldn't try to eat soup with a fork, would you. |
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JAH!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry PG , but I think you're turning back to the beginning!!!
I'm still catching the same message: "there is no full printed manual and we don't want to make it, Be content with what we offer" and I'd like to add some more: "the customer is always right" and "if you want to sell something better make it as the customer wants"
I think we all know by Cubase how long are the Starting guides!
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Vocalpoint
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JAH! wrote: | | I'm still catching the same message: "there is no full printed manual and we don't want to make it, Be content with what we offer" |
I am tending to agree with this sentiment more and more - ESPEICALLY for the Mac folks - who are entering the WL world for the very first time. None will have a V6 frame of reference never mind the old manual to look at - and this is coming from a user who has used WL for 5 years...and I am barely off the ground over here.
BTW - that Wavelab 6-7 FAQ is of little value...I quickly read through it and none of it really applies to a user who is confused - like most of us are.
Get on a full manual ASAP and make this right, guys.
VP
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Orbit-50
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hold on guys, understand what PG is saying. He's explaining that a lot of work went into the help files. Don't discount using them before even trying to acheive the desired result, which is learning how to use Wavelab 7. Granted, I'd love a beautiful printed manual myself, but there isn't a beautiful one to print. From where I'm sitting, all I see is that there is is a very streamlined pdf manual with no pictures, but it still gives you a good idea of what's going on in Wavelab 7. I probably wont print it. So, what's my next move? It's to take his advice and at least try to use the help system to learn the ins and outs of Wavelab 7. Guess what? I'm actually learning how the program functions by using the help system. At the end of the day, it's all about learning how to use the program and that's what I'm doing. It works.
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