Audio Warp Is Completely Unusable For A Final Release [2]

alabamian · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject:

Yes. A specific list of the problems would be great.

I also remember reading on the Nuendo forum a while ago (and this isn't going to be too helpful, but maybe it'll jog someone else's memory too) about how the 'quality,' settings are poorly labeled...

Most of us tend to always press, 'highest quality,' when given the choice, but on the Nuendo forum it was discovered that the different quality levels affect the results in odd ways... that highest quality might not be best for vocals but rather for drums... or something like that... anyone else catch that post?

Something to think about at any rate.

But to echo Paul's request, reprint from the other thread what's broken and why and the exact steps to reproduce the problem... statements like, 'it sucks and is unprofessional,' don't help at all without the corresponding example... and the precise steps and even if you have the server space, an example file or two...
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SLL · Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 976 Location: Denmark

I have fiddled around with SX3's audio warp feature since SX3 came out. In fact, audio warp was one of the reasons I upgraded from
SX2.

What I found out was, that audio warp contained ugly bugs and ugly soundings, and it still does in SX3.1.1. Another thing with the current
Audio Warp implementation is, that it is difficult and slow to use, if you wants fair results.

I never thought, that audio warp had anything to do with MPEX, as audio warp has its own engine, right?! I don't really know whats happend
when you freeze warped audio, other that its introduce new problems and bugs with the freezed audio.

To name a few problems and bugs with the SX3 audio warp:

1.
The well known "rumble" sound, which appears here and there and everywhere. You can make some settings, which makes much of the rumble
sound go away - just to find out, that the warping act differently in another place. You can make settings (without too much rumble sound), that
works alright for a specific task, but will probably don't work alright for tempo changes, as they will start to sound bad.

For me, its very difficult to make a really really good settings, that works without the "rumble sound", and sound good for mixed material, and that
allow some tempo changes and still sound good. I have tried many times, but it won't work. I always end up by allowing the "rumble" sound, and
then get good tempo changes sound.

2.
Edit problems with Audio Warp on, is a confirmed bug. Audio warped events sometimes plays more of the events, that is actually now visible. Normally,
its buggin' me, when I have made some cut edits on the ending of an event, and then still hear's something from a bassdrum, that is not visible on the
event?! Christian has confirmed this bug a long time ago.

Also the strange waveform drawings on the events, when you drag on the small fadeout/fadein gadgets. It doesn't show whats actually is played back?

3.
I have also warped freezed a complete warped mix I have made (5 stereo audio tracks, 12 mins lenght), which resulted in sound caos and strange .
Most notible, was the strange volume droppings in the middle of an event? Suddenly the waveform data and volume was faded completely down, and
fast up again on random places in my audio. And there was strange clicks in my audio, which wasn't there before the freezing?!
Undo everything worked Smile

now I only use realtime warping.

One positive thing about freezing everything was, that the "rumble" sound went nearly away. I still was there, but not in the same degree as before freezing.

4.
About the sample editor functions, I think the warp audio and tempo functions are usable, but definatly not fast. And a little thing that has irritated me, is the
small handles when you use the rangetool to find a good loop for the tempo tool. Its easy to click a little wrong with the little rangetool arrow and thereby loose
the complete range, that already was there, if you just needed to make small adjustments. Then you need to start all over again.

And then the audition buttons, the playtool. It really irritate me, that when you have set up a range or a loop, that everytime yo press the audio play button,
it start playback from the beginning of the loop or range. You can't audition from where your songlocator is, unless you press play and navigate there manually!

5.
As for the function in the sample editor, I miss an advanced autocalculation tool like in Live5. It should auto-calculate BPM's on imported audio, from some advanced settings.

I'm also missing a better warped editor grid, where it should be faster and more easy to warp long files like a complete song. The current implementation is fine for small loops, but its easy to loose overview of whats going on.

6.
I'm also having some problems with the tightness of my warped audio. Its very hard, if not impossible to align more warped track up playing together. For me,
it always end up sound like a bad live playback where it lack timing. Its like the graine engine corrects itself all the time, and sometimes needs to speed tempo
a little down or up, which you can hear. And when you freeze you warped audio, the timing change, which I thing is very strange?!

Like the freeze funtion change the timing somehow? Yeah, plus it add strange things to the audio?!

Regards,
SLL
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Paul Woodlock · Guest

The BIGGEST FLAW with the Audio Warp/Musical Mode IMO Is that is doesn't work at all if your project is ALREADY at a variable tempo before you start recording audio.

For example...

1] Record a freetempo midi instrument. Turn on Tempo Track and Use Timewarp to sync the bars andbeats to the performance.

2] Overdub some audio tracks.

3] Eveything OK so far,..................

4] Then try and use the Audiowarp to apply a local tempo map to the audio so you can tweak the tempo further.

5] It wont happen. As soon as you use warp tabs, and turn musical mode on. The Warp tabs you have carefully placed over the existing tempo track bar/beat positions move out of sync. It's like the Audiowarp only works with the underlying fixedtempo value.

This means the only way to retain editing oftempo in a project is to turn the tempo track OFF before recording new audio and applying warp tabs to it. Of course if you've ALREADY recorded variable tempo audio overdubs ( as in my above example ) you cannot do this and you're stuffed.

I do hope that SX4 fixes this important anomoly Smile

Paul

beyond · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 107

Why did Mr. Christian Dettner lock the other thread?

Is he trying to avoid the publicity of these negative truths about his company Steinberg and their flagship product?

How many complaints from different customers will it take for Steinberg to acknowledge the problem rather than deny it exists?

The same thing happened with the MIDI timing defect starting last Spring.

texx · Guest

I don't think audiowarp has been developed, or was intended, to be used creatively. The intention is probably to apply corrections to existing material where those corrections don't introduce artifacts. If you strain that design too much you will induce artifacts especially if you use it on material that has already been warped. Even the specialist top end warping programs/machines introduce distortion at the extremes albeit that those distortions have been used creatively. They do cost considerably more, though.

Christian Dettner · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject:

beyond · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 107

Dear Mr. Dettner,

Whether the form made sense to you is irrelevant to its right to exist and be exposed to other users and potential customers. It obviously made sense to many real users that they have been idenintifying with it and participating in it.

You are rationalizing your real motive, that is censorship of product defects to protect Steinberg.

What would really be constructive is that you investigate the problem by asking the users who are encountering the audio glitches to send you isolated project + audio files and promising them fixes.

You are simplying ignoring the issue, calling it nonsense and insisting that the product "works as designed", when it clearly does not, as proven by many many users.

A sucessful company like any other entity must exhibit maturity and responsibility.

Kitchen Sink · Grand Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 4340

beyond · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 107

Let us the see the "design documents" for SX4 that has addressed AudioWarp defects, then we will know we are not being ignored. According to Steinberg right now, it "Works as Designed" which implies that it does not need to be fixed.

Why are you taking your time to defend Steinberg anyway? Are you not a customer? What if one day you use AudioWarp in front of a client and it starts to Pop and Crackle?

SLL · Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 976 Location: Denmark

yila · Junior Member Joined: 03 Apr 2005 Posts: 93

just get ableton live, the warp works auto on all tracks and u can just assign a midi controller to speed slow down audio.

Cubase Warp is far too long winded.

You'll never get your problems solved on here just excused so just buy another product that works instead, maybe then steinberg will listen.
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SLL · Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 976 Location: Denmark

Buying another product like Live5 would be stupid, unless you only want to use its Audio Warp
feature professional. All other things in live5 feels a little thin compared to SX3.

No doubt that Live is good for "live" work, but SX3's workflow, GUI and the hole VST, VSTi implementation
is far away from Live5 in a positive direction. Where steiny has invented and build core functionality, it's much
more stable and intuitive. Thats also why I stay with Steiny, as they still is in the lead with - VST, VSTi, Delay comp.
GUI design, stabillity. Audio warp is something Steiny needed to implement, but not at newcomers. Sony Acid, Live was
there before.

SLL
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texx · Guest

DNA · Junior Member Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 59

Hey Paul,

I think SLL nailed it but I will just confirm:

* Mpex2 is broken and doesn't work at all. It makes things sound like a really bad mp3 encode.
* The realtime warp algorithm is volatile and causes many degradations in the sound quality of the audio events - even on tiny corrections.
* What's worse is if you try to correct and get a "consistent" sound from it, it will change later if you add more warp tabs further along an event
* Audio warp sometimes sounds better on 50% stretched material than on 20% stretched material and this is total rubbish. This proves it could be improved immensely. It should sound decent on small edits and become increasingly degraded the more things get stretched just like any other time stretcher. That being said, knock the warp tab out of the way by a tiny amount and your 50% stretch that sounded great now sounds like it has clicks and pops etc etc. Move the audio warp around to find the sweet spot again and it takes forever.
* The worse thing of all is trying to add processing whether it be tuning or eq to an event that has been warped and the clicks and pops find new places to manifest.

I've stopped wasting my time trying to get a perfectly edited piece of audio using warp because it changes all the time. I have to create little vocal bounces of each phrase in order to use it without changing as the project takes shape. It's a hassle but it's working for now.

Cheers,
Anthony

texx · Guest

Paul Woodlock · Guest

Paul Woodlock · Guest

beyond · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 107

Look Mr. texx,

I did not ask you to do anything, only asked why you are peculiarly defending Steinberg.

You have no right to attack me, and call me a "snooty twat", or attack my musicianship. If anything Steinberg should moderate this type of behavoir on this forum. You have agreed to the rules of conduct for this forum.

I am rightfully voicing our complaint about the product having defects and not meeting upto advertised specifications. We are not complaining about the quality of AudioWarp sound, we are stating that it delivers Corrupted Audio often in areas of the audio clip where it is not even applying a stretch at all.

It is non of your business how I use this feature, and whether I use it to correct bad or perfect amazing performances. You do not know me, and would not know me acting like this.

However, you must remain civilized.

Christian Dettner · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:44 am Post subject:

Please name the issues you have.
Nothing is accomplished by just venting of steam.
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st@g · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:00 am Post subject:

beyond · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 107

Here is one of the issues I have come across;

An audio clip, I put in 3 audiowarp tabs, let's call them Left, Middle and Right. I moved the Middle one to improve the timing of a note, the Left and the Right ones were untouched. This means that what came after the Right tab was completely unstretched, yet the sound after the Right tab becomes corrupted depending on the position of the Middle tab, slightly moving it fixes it sometimes.. sometimes not.

This has happened several times before. I tried freezing to MPEX, which often produced more gaps and clicks. The best solution was to bounce the subsection of the audio to another clip before warping it.

I do not have any projects with that defect sitting in them, but the next time this happens I can just keep that audio clip with the audiwarp settings causing the problem and send you a simplified project file, if you promise to look at it and invetigate it.

If everybody with a problem does the same, and you guys investigate and fix it, then we can take care ot this.

imagengine · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:10 am Post subject:

Hi
I also upgraded to 3 thinking audio warp could do what it seemed to be saying. It doesnt really. If you want something to really do vocals wells then buy melodyne; without peer. I have and its fantastic and not hard to use. If you really want to fix drums then buy beatquantiser; better than beat detective and cheaper. Overall SX is a good product and it would be nice if marketing of the features was a little less bloated. It cant handle multitrack audio quantising etc either so dont even go there. Just face the hard facts that there are no progs out there that do everything well. Just use SX for what it does do well. Just my resolution (worked for me). Software is constantly evolving and you get there by everyone putting in good info

Regs
Engine

Christian Dettner · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:13 am Post subject:

beyond · Member Joined: 04 Mar 2005 Posts: 107

Dear Mr. Dettner,

Certainly I can do that. The next time this happens I will minimize the project around the problem audiowarp clip, zip it and send it to you. Perhaps if I get the free time, I will try to reproduce it sooner.

Thank you for your interest!

Christian Dettner · Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:24 am Post subject:

No problem at all. Please sent it to <c DOT dettner AT steinberg DOT de>.

Thank you.
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efluon · Junior Member Joined: 03 Dec 2004 Posts: 45

there IS some real cnuts here, that make it real difficult to get to the bottom of this.

first off, i think the prob of the orig poster (anthony) is that he should consider shelling out a little and buy melodyne. using two artefact-prone processes in series is certain to destroy your sound, if you are unlucky (which you seem to be) the second process will optimize the artefact-sound instead of the signal.

secondly, there are a lot of bugs with this, and as beyond said in the beginning, this feature just can't have been tested appropriately. but with each update there are problems that are adressed (and also sometimes new ones are introduced). so there is progress. afaik all of the bugs have been fixed in nuendo 3.2, but i may be mistaken.

thirdly, there have been many things mixed up with these feature. there are bugs, there is misusage and there are bad-workflow-items here. it would benefit us all to sort those three out, else this thread will only be a whingy-whiny time-consumer.

as for mpex. it sucks. try (timebandit) standard (complex) algo.

cheers and more of a real happy new year.

texx · Guest