The risk of ear damage

[frogga]

This topic is to open a discussion on damage listening too much to loud music can cause and prevention :-

A couple of articles - many more out there if you google.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/29/eveningnews/main1085446.shtml


http://www.hearnet.com/at_risk/risk_tinnitus.shtml

I started thinking about this today after my girlfriend sent me a link (in french) about Pete Townsend having a big battle with losing his normal hearing.
He said that he believes most of the damage was probably not done with loud concerts he played but, loud volumes in headphones whilst recording in studio sessions.

I know I probably listen too much and too long on my headphones in the studio, but how do we really know when it is too loud?
How do we know when we do too much?

Is there a scientific way we can calculate if the headphones/monitors are actually too loud and could damage our hearing?

If we turn the volume below this threshold on mixing (with monitor speakers) can we accurately mix?

I know I like it loud when I track my vocals especially - but I am seriously thinking about going for an ear test and also starting to change my studio behaviour on how I listen to music - I don't want to end up with tinitis or severely impaired hearing - a musicians worst nightmare?

Please discuss - maybe some of you have some practical ideas to share with the rest of us.
Either way, please keep your ears - as a musician/engineer, this is probably your most important asset!
Cheers
G
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[Tank]

Good post. When I was a session musician I always wore ear plugs on tour and as a result I still have very good hearing even though I am rapidly approaching 45

It's great when you can hear things in a mix that the engineer you are working with can't because his ears are shot.......actually it's not great at all and can lead to arguments because they are convinced the sound you can hear is not there.

I always listen to stuff at low level...it is so easy to convince yourself something sounds better than it actaully does when it's played loud. Getting sounding good low down and it will probably sound good loud, at least for most rock/ pop stuff anyways.

T
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[MarkOne]

The US government defines a level of 90dB for 8 hours as a safe maximum for a work environment.

They have a sliding scale above that:

6 hours/day - 92dB
4 hours/day - 95dB
3 hours/day - 97dB
2 hours/day - 100dB
1.5 hours/day - 102dB
1 hours/day - 105dB
.5 hours/day - 110dB
.25 hours/day - or less - 115dB


Here in the UK The latest requirement on employers coming in on 1 February will be 85dB/8h. Most experts now agree that continual exposure to more than 85 decibels will damage hearing in the long run.

Given that a symphony orchestra will peak at 137dB and rock played through a reasonable set of monitors at what most people would consider "realistic" loud levels is around 120dB you can see that it's not surprising that musicians suffer in this regard! (A live rock event can be up around 140dB!) The incidence of hearing loss in classical musicians has been estimated at up to 43%, in rock musicians it's somewhere between 13-30%.

My advice - Mix at low levels, only crank it briefly to see how your mix translates at high volume. Take a lot of breaks.

My dad worked a lot of his early years in a large manufacturing plant, long before they had such things as noise-control and he suffers with tinnitus and has to use 2 digital hearing aids. As a keen baritone singer in a choir, I know this has been something that he's struggled with in later years.

Sobering isn't it!
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[Rockville]

The main problem with using phones for mixing is that your are not listening to the song or piece of music as a finished entity, but as we are all aware it is the subtle detail we are concentrating on. So while we are looping that section to see if the reverb send for the vocal abrasives is sitting right, we forget that everything else is still belting out at uncomfotable levels, and its amazing how time flies when doing this, and how quickly you adapt to the unsafe levels. Using headphones should be kept to an absolute minimum, and then only used for short durations with regular and long breaks in between. At least with monitors when the volume starts creeping up you get other warning signs like distortion and eventually physical fatigue, and of course in the back of your mind is the possibility that you might end up trashing them. Once you damage your hearing it never recovers. Try this (or actually don't), monitor in your normal way for an hour. Make a note of the settings and the next day set everything up as you left it and listen again before you hearing has adapted to the volume....you may be surprised. Most things that can cause physical damage in the workplace are now covered by legislation (UK). The use of power tools and the long term effects (e.g. vibration white finger), use of chemicals (COSHH),and acceptable noise levels and the exposure to noise in the work place, and believe me the acceptable levels are set very low to prevent claims for industrial deafness. So if your hobby/job is music and you ignore the risks...well

[Rockville]

You beat me to the punch Markone.

[Paul Woodlock]

[frogga]

This is all great advice guys

If 85 db is a good level to mix/listen to music at - how can you check this (I guess its even harder to calculate with headphones).

I would like to follow some good sense, but I wouldn't have a clue on how to estimate the volumes...
Any suggestions chaps?
Cheers!
G
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[Paul Woodlock]

[Alternative Energy Music!]

Seems to me that even 85 db is still significantly loud. I wouldn't advise "listening" at that volume on an ongoing basis.
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[numnutz]

My wife told me of a NPR broadcast wherein Pete Townshend postulates that using headphones contributed to his hearing loss. I read that to mean that in the studio, he had to crank the heaphones abusively to overcome the HiWatt in front of him while recording.

Les Paul. Mmmmmmmmm......

[Bob Yordan]

This is why I choose my small KrK V4 speakers. Much nicer, IMHO to mix on them on a rather low
level than using eg headphones. Then when the mix is ready for a mixdown, I switch on my JBL speakers
to get a feel of how it sounds on a louder volume and a larger pair.

Going out in another room to listen to the overall balance is a thing that I often do.

And when I come back and sit infront of the speakers again, I almost always turn the listening
volume down. Because I think it was to loud. It is much better to get a reference if the ears have had
a small pause from the direct sound.
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[Paul Woodlock]

[Pearldivers]

I'm like Bob, I track, monitor and mix (70%) on my little HorrorTones at what would be considered very moderate levels. I regularly check my mix under cans as I go, as I often pick up details that way.

I then check my mix on a progressive basis on my bigger JBLs, but they are in a different room. I find that this process (which I know many folk would condemn) automatically forces my ears to refresh. In a way, I guess I'm compromising between two listening environments, but in terms of volume levels they are always moderate, and probably a lot less than 85dB.

I know that it is headphones, not any other type of listening, that has contributed to and aggravated my tinitus the most, that's another reason I only use them for "microscopic" listening, and as sparingly as possible.

I will never buy or use an i-Pod, etc. That is hearing loss waiting to happen IMHO.

In the end, it ain't rocket science. Crank up the volume for sustained periods and regularly = lose your hearing. Not to mention your aural perspective (i.e. musical judgement).

Jet
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[Skent]

I've heard it said that if you can't hear normal conversation while you're wearing headphones, then they're too loud.
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[Paul Woodlock]