FLAC in Wavelab

DJCoryMinto · Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: FLAC in Wavelab

I know that it is not currently supported.

I plan on converting hundreds of gigs of bulky wav files into FLAC (I believe roughly half the size). It would be great if I can edit my flac files in WL without having to convert them both before and after.

To cut to the chase, is Steinberg planning on implementing this great file format into WL anytime soon?
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Neil Wilkes · Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject:

+1
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PG · Moderator Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 3396

I wish this, and I also wish someone else would do it <g> as there is a WaveLab public plugin specs for this...
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DJCoryMinto · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:31 am Post subject:

Lutz Rippe · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:16 am Post subject:

BASHuss · Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 205 Location: Munich

DJCoryMinto · Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject:

So, then, HAS anyone written the code to a third-party plug-in for use of FLAC in Wavelab?

Additionally, I had never heard of Wavpack, and from the looks of it, it is virtually the same as FLAC. If they're both lossless, then I would imagine that only two criteria could possibly be considered in judgment between them.... #1: which packs a smaller file? #2: which is more widely supported?

I'm purchasing Native Instruments' Traktor Scratch Live 3 for DJing purposes, and AFAIK, Wavpack is not supported but FLAC is. So I'm wondering if I can snag a 3rd-party plug-in for FLAC use in Wavelab. If so, then I can save in FLAC format in Wavelab. But could I open a FLAC in Wavaleb as well, using this said plugin?

Thanks for the responses so far...
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pwhodges · Member Joined: 22 Jun 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Oxford, UK

S-EH · Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:12 pm Post subject:

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless_comparison

regards S-EH
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Arjan P · Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject:

Good link, S-EH! Seems like WavPack and FLAC are well in the same league, with FLAC having better hardware coverage. WavPack is specifically mentioned having 32-bit float support, isn't that the case with FLAC also? - Edit: Found it already; No floating point support in FLAC.
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S-EH · Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject:

Thanks Arjan !

FLAC supports up to 24 bit/192 kHz from what I have seen (Google)
check around maybe there is more info about this, yeah you already found out Cool

and it's good to know that PG is supporting the good stuff "WavPack" in WL
FLAC support yes please, Hello Bernd Laughing

regards S-EH
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BASHuss · Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 205 Location: Munich

Hey S-EH,

yes, I might do that, but I will not be happy if I have time to do it... - as when I do it, it means that I have no fulltime project to feed my family at that time... Confused

... but yes, I'd like to - I like to work on something related to audio and WaveLab Very Happy

... would you remind me in the middle of January? No chance to do anything earlier. Right now I have a good chance for me and my family to get really fat - if I only would have some time to eat. Wink

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DJCoryMinto · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:58 am Post subject:

So is FLAC support yet available through a plugin? I assume not. Any projection as to when?
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BASHuss · Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 205 Location: Munich

To sum it up:

1) WL users and PG like to have FLAC support for WL.

2) Everybody who knows c or c++ well enough can write a plugin with WL public IO plugin specs...

3) Nobody we know has already done that...

4) I am interrested in the topic, but I can earliest start in January - and this is not sure. As I do not know the complexity of writing such a plugin, I would carefully say that I could deliver a public beta in summer 2008. ... still there is no guarantee that I do it.

5) Hopefully somebody else does it faster and in good quality (and tells me that he did before January!) Very Happy

best regards,
Bernd

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

I'm extremely pretty busy with other projects, but I *could* prioritize this if some people would be willing to pay for the plug-in. How many people think $30 would be a fair price, considering the hours of time I'll have to put into the coding and testing?

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

Another reason to love SONAR 7:

New file format import/export options including Sony Wave-64, AIF, CAF, FLAC, Sound Designer II

Kitchen Sink · Grand Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 4340

I once compared lossless codecs (for example WavPack, FLAC, Monkey's Audio) quite carefully, and WavPack came out as a clear winner. What tipped the point in WavPack's favour was
- free, open source
- support for ALL bit depths, including 32-bit float
- can save and restore ALL information in the original WAV file 100.0% perfectly, producing bit-identical uncompressed files
- including all Cubase's custom meta chunks, which are important for Cubase projects
- including the file's original date/time stamps
- has MD5 checksums for error checking
- very fast compression and decompression

From what I remember, FLAC failed in several criteria. And probably still fails, I haven't checked recently.

I don't really understand the point in comparing the compression ratios. I don't care if it's 61% ot 62%. All codecs have very impressive ratios, and the above listed things are much more important. At least for me.

Edit: I checked the "Lossless comparison" web page, and it seems that now FLAC has at least support for RIFF chunks, which is good. It still doesn't mean that it actually preserves all chunks so that Cubase doesn't lose any information. And nothing is said about time/date stamp support, which is important.

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

Kitchen Sink · Grand Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 4340

Wow!

Let's fight! Not having support for 32 bit float is bad. And can FLAC preserve date/time stamps? These are important things, you can't explain that away.

WavPack can compress and uncompress all wave files in an entire Cubase project folder, without having to speculate whether or not some of the files can be scrapped or not. FLAC can't do that, so I won't use FLAC. It's as simple as that.

Btw, you said "probably", and "I believe". That doesn't inspire confidence! Neener neener. All you proved is that there are enthusiastic FLAC believers out there. Good for you. Smile

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

Arjan P · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject:

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone.

I'm not trying to talk you out of using WavPack. If it makes you feel better go for it. I was simply addressing some statements which I felt where not an accurate representation of FLAC.

Ciao young bitmasters!

Max

Arjan P · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject:

Kitchen Sink · Grand Senior Member Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 4340

What a funny thread.

We don't need to consider at all what goes inside a 32 bit float WAV. For archiving it doesn't make a difference if it contains cats or dogs or whatever. It's one of the types of audio files that need to be packed and archived. For archiving Cubase projects, it's better to have a program which can handle any WAV file, and FLAC can't do it.

And can FLAC preserve file date information?

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

maxhodges · New Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 11

Arjan P · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:26 am Post subject:

Okay, my mastering is like this: I have the source files, which are 24-bit 44.1kHz, they are put in a montage, where lots (or not so much) of processing takes place, all in the 32-bit float domain. That's why I render each separate song (being a clip) to 32-bit float; this is my master in the highest (and the working) resolution, without Master Section plugins applied, since that may differ when combined with other songs for a different CD in the future, for instance.

The files I want archived are obviously the source files (24-44), the master rendered files (32f-44) and the montage with all its settings. The 32f-44 mastered files are reloaded whenever a new output format or different compilation is needed; either 16-44 for CD, 24-44 for further work in the 'analog' domain or any compressed type of format, like MP3. I don't know and don't care what happens mathematically within WL, it's like Kitchen Sink says; it's one of the types of files that needs to be packed and archived.
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Arjan P · Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: