SSD's and daws

[Mantorok]

Hello,

I'm about to build me a new DAW. 64bit, i7 processor, windows 7 etc. And with ssd's around for a reasonable price nowadays I wonder if it's a better move to let hdd's pass and build 2 sd's inside the machine. They are rumored to be faster , quieter and have a faster access time as well. Is there an issue with these drives if they are intenstely used by audio apps?
_________________
Core i7 930 (2.8Ghz) / 6 gb patriot viper DDR3 ram
RME HDSP 9652 (3.082)
Cubase 5 studio 5.1.1
vsti's: INTAKT, ABSYNTH4, MASSIVE, EWQLSO(XP), Nexus, Sylenth1 Real Guitar 2 / RealStrat / FM8
Mastering: sound forge 9 / Waves L3 / V-Series | vocal rider

[vinark]

For the programs? Audio? Samples?
_________________
C4 4.5.2 32bit with Jbridge
Asus P5Q @ 425FSB
Intel Q9550 @3.63GHz
8gb Corsair XMS2 800C4 @ 1066MhzC5
RME hdsp9652 with AEB4-O
2 uad1's + liquidmix
XP64pro

[Mantorok]

well everything. I wonder if it's the same rules as using a hdd. One ssd for samples, one for the system/Software.
_________________
Core i7 930 (2.8Ghz) / 6 gb patriot viper DDR3 ram
RME HDSP 9652 (3.082)
Cubase 5 studio 5.1.1
vsti's: INTAKT, ABSYNTH4, MASSIVE, EWQLSO(XP), Nexus, Sylenth1 Real Guitar 2 / RealStrat / FM8
Mastering: sound forge 9 / Waves L3 / V-Series | vocal rider

[vinark]

I'm not really sure, If you record a lot (often) audio doesn't seem like a good idea, those disks need a lot of attention to function at their rated speed unless you use trim (vista and win7 only and the disk needs to support it). Maybe a small disk you keep the working project on, but it won't last long then.

For an OS it will only make it boot a faster. You can decide if you need that (there is the most experience what use as a boot disk)

Samples is where most improvement might be seen if it is disk throughput that is limiting you. Theoretically you could use smaller streaming buffers in your sampler, because of the improved access time. But you are somewhat on the bleeding edge and on your own, so you ill end up needing to do some extra work too keep it running optimally. And I'm not sure if the samplers aren't to optimised for HD use.

Helpful eh
_________________
C4 4.5.2 32bit with Jbridge
Asus P5Q @ 425FSB
Intel Q9550 @3.63GHz
8gb Corsair XMS2 800C4 @ 1066MhzC5
RME hdsp9652 with AEB4-O
2 uad1's + liquidmix
XP64pro

[Mantorok]

good that you bring trim into attention. I'll have to pay attention that i buy disks that support it. I'd already buy windows 7 so that OS seems to support it already.

I guess with other maintenance you mean disk defrag and disk cleanup. And using no swap file and stuff like that ?
_________________
Core i7 930 (2.8Ghz) / 6 gb patriot viper DDR3 ram
RME HDSP 9652 (3.082)
Cubase 5 studio 5.1.1
vsti's: INTAKT, ABSYNTH4, MASSIVE, EWQLSO(XP), Nexus, Sylenth1 Real Guitar 2 / RealStrat / FM8
Mastering: sound forge 9 / Waves L3 / V-Series | vocal rider

[DG]

[Kubaez]

If you haven't got tons of samples, you might best use a SSD exclusively for samples (= content files). You once write them to the disk, and then they will only be read out, so the weak point (many write cycles ---> disk getting slower and losing capacity) of a SSD will almost not be touched.

[Mantorok]

rightnow i use system disk (c for host, plugins and finished mixes, and the d: dir has all the samples but I also use d:\audio to write the project files and the audio files that are being writen when recording vocals etc. + it's used for all the sample libraries of the plugins that are on c:
_________________
Core i7 930 (2.8Ghz) / 6 gb patriot viper DDR3 ram
RME HDSP 9652 (3.082)
Cubase 5 studio 5.1.1
vsti's: INTAKT, ABSYNTH4, MASSIVE, EWQLSO(XP), Nexus, Sylenth1 Real Guitar 2 / RealStrat / FM8
Mastering: sound forge 9 / Waves L3 / V-Series | vocal rider

[Kubaez]

System / Software / Plugins / Mixdowns on one disk is ok.

Samples AND audio files (recordings) on the same disk will cause that disk to work
a) for delivering the needed samples for plugins
b) for playing back the already recorded audio tracks
c) for saving the newly recorded tracks.

So, it makes sense to let one disk only read the samples (= the library files), and to add a third disk for the audio data.

That's why I suggested a "read only" SSD for the libraries. (That doesn't mean a SDD is read only, but if you use it this way, there should be no problems at all as to speed and loss of capacity, no matter if a "trim" function is available or not).

[UltimateOutsider]

I would be a lot more excited about SSD if modern DAWs were less powerful, but as it is, a good computer with fast SATA drives and a multi-drive setup (OS, samples, projects) can easily handle dozens of high-bitrate tracks. SSD drives are just too damn small to be practical- for my personal uses, anyway. I've heard arguments about SSDs being quieter than regular HDs, but if you have quiet drives and a good case, that's not an issue (I cannot hear the 3 WD drives in my current DAW at all, and my fans are very quiet).

I just got my first exposure to SSD last week; my corporate-issued IT notebook has an 80GB SSD drive, and it is damn speedy with regard to OS bootup and launching apps. (And silent.) I am about to replace it with a 320GB HD, though, because 80GB is not enough for all my apps and data. I am going to do some before-and-after benchmarking to judge the difference between the drives, to see what, if anything, I'll be missing in terms of performance.
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PC: 64-bit Win 7 Pro, Intel i7 950 on a Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5, 12 GB RAM, WD Caviar Black 500GB (3), NVIDIA GTX 260 w/896MB vRAM | FIREWIRE AUDIO INTERFACE: MOTU UltraLite MK3 | USB MIDI INTERFACE: MOTU micro lite | DAW: Cubase 5.11 64-bit | VSTs: NUSofting HarpTime, MusicLab RealGuitar & RealStrat, Native Instruments Komplete 6

[karltl]

I use an SSD for my C drive (op sys and applications). It's not just quiet...it's totally silent. there are no moving parts in it. Think really big USB memory stick but runs sata.

Very low power req's very low heat dissipation. Effectively zero access time (no r/w head to move though there probably is some incredibly short addressing time).

Tech reports I've read say they "wear out" from lot's of write cycles but most of them incorporate controllers and some spare capacity that try to balance the "writes" across the device so that no particular storage location gets hammered to death.

In my opinion, too expensive right now, in price p/gig, to use for lot's of storage...great for relatively small needs (op sys and applications). Running the page file on them is a question mark...I do it and we'll see how it affects it's life expectancy but it is darn sure fast as hell!

For large sample lib's I'm still of the opinion that a pair of inexpensive SATA drives in a raid0 cofig is the best bang for the buck you'll find. I have 2, each a pair of 640 gig drives (WD caviar blue), $65 each from Tigerdirect or Newegg....a 1.3 terrabyte array with data throughput rates of better than 200 MB p/sec.

I'm using an OCZ 60 gig vertex drive. Op sys, and all applications currently take up 41gig.
_________________
Intel i5 quad core CPU, Win7 64 bit, 8 gig ram, 7 hard drives, 2 Gforce 8400 fanless video cards, quad displays. RME HDSPe & RME Multiface, RME Fireface 800, Steinberg MR816X. Cubase 4.5.2, Kontakt3, Halion Player, EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold, EWQL Collosus, BFD2, Korg Pad Control, Steinberg CC121 controller, ART MPA Gold mic preamp.

Remote rig- ADK model 7600 laptop (i7, 17" mon). Mobile rack for the Fireface 800, MR816x , ART S8 mic splitter, Furman PL-8C power conditioner.

Mic's:AKG C414's (stereo pair), Rode NT5's (Stereo pair), Fathead Ribbon mic's (stereo pair), SM57's (5), SM58 (5), AKG Perception 200 condensor, AKG D112, Sennheiser e914 condensor, EV ND457 dynamic, AT 4033's (2).

www.ReferencePointRecording.com

[TheHobbit]

SSD still early days yet and I believe the up and coming generation will prove to be more reliable. There are issues, as mentioned, with constant read or writes so if running OS fromthem is fine with large RAM and disabling swapfile.

Do some research = in short Im ine for performance but feel the need to wait. Recording to SATA is fine and I still think SSD is in it's infancy for the price!

http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx
_________________
○ PC • Synths • Audio Interface • Mixer • Ext FX • Plugins ○

"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing peace, abolishing strife. "

[Mantorok]

I always thought people adviced 10.000rpm disks ? But caviar blue are 7200. So they can achieve 200m/s in raid ? than that's the thing I might go to + an SSd as system disk.
_________________
Core i7 930 (2.8Ghz) / 6 gb patriot viper DDR3 ram
RME HDSP 9652 (3.082)
Cubase 5 studio 5.1.1
vsti's: INTAKT, ABSYNTH4, MASSIVE, EWQLSO(XP), Nexus, Sylenth1 Real Guitar 2 / RealStrat / FM8
Mastering: sound forge 9 / Waves L3 / V-Series | vocal rider

[karltl]

Alot of people have advised 10k rpm disks (WD Velociraptors). I have 2 of them from a previous system. They'll generally show some 150MB/s transfer rate. The rate slows down a bit as they get filled up (not exactly sure why, mite be that they fill from the outer edge in...slower to read from a disk towards the center because you have to increment the head more often???).

They run nice, fairly quiet, but they're still somewhat expensive per gig (a 150 gig raptor'll run you $160, a 300 gig'll run you $210. If you have a more recent mobo, you'll probably have 6 sata connectors on it. With that many connections available, setting up pairs of much cheaper 7800 rpm drives is more cost effective and faster.

There is the slight decrease in reliability of a raid 0 array, vs a single drive but,in my humble opinion, the ease or creating and restoring a backup, makes this point pretty meaningless. This is one of the reasons, though, that I use this for sample lib's...the nature of them is that, once they're loaded, they dont change very often..thus, up to date backup's are much easier to maintain. It's a little more risky a proposition for your project drive but might still make some sense.
_________________
Intel i5 quad core CPU, Win7 64 bit, 8 gig ram, 7 hard drives, 2 Gforce 8400 fanless video cards, quad displays. RME HDSPe & RME Multiface, RME Fireface 800, Steinberg MR816X. Cubase 4.5.2, Kontakt3, Halion Player, EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold, EWQL Collosus, BFD2, Korg Pad Control, Steinberg CC121 controller, ART MPA Gold mic preamp.

Remote rig- ADK model 7600 laptop (i7, 17" mon). Mobile rack for the Fireface 800, MR816x , ART S8 mic splitter, Furman PL-8C power conditioner.

Mic's:AKG C414's (stereo pair), Rode NT5's (Stereo pair), Fathead Ribbon mic's (stereo pair), SM57's (5), SM58 (5), AKG Perception 200 condensor, AKG D112, Sennheiser e914 condensor, EV ND457 dynamic, AT 4033's (2).

www.ReferencePointRecording.com

[TheHobbit]

An addum for you

"Show us your SSD performance"

http://www.sevenforums.com/showthread.php?t=18229
_________________
○ PC • Synths • Audio Interface • Mixer • Ext FX • Plugins ○

"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing peace, abolishing strife. "

[UltimateOutsider]

I got the replacement drive I mentioned and just did before-and-after tests on the drive (moving from 80GB SSD to a much bigger HD). I used Crystal Disk Mark 3.0 to run the tests. This is on an HP EliteBook 8530w (not a DAW system). I ran the test first on the SSD, then I ghosted the OS image to my new HD, and then ran the test again once I swapped the SSD out for the HD. The SSD drive is an Intel 80GB SATA. The hard drive is a 320GB Seagate 2.5" notebook drive. The notebook was running XP Pro 32-bit.

The SSD drive:

[JBlongz]

Do not use SSD drive in as the system drive in your music rig. You are preparing yourself for unpredictable failure because of the current technology's limited write cycles. You CAN however use it for your sound drive (since it will be doing much more reading than writing). You've been warned!
_________________
2009 Mac Pro 8 Core 2.26 6GB RAM
2009 MacBook Pro 2.8 5GB RAM
OSX 10.5.7

[ilpadrone]

[midimaddness]

[jcschild]

ok with Win7 and a trim enabled SSD you can use the SSD as an OS no issues despite the massive amounts of right to the OS (you are correct Midi)
however it does nothing for audio just makes the windows experiance a tad nicer
as an audio drive its pointless
as a samples playback its great but i question the point of it other than perhaps for live gign (very quick load times)

i am on my 3rd SSD for an OS.
still not sure its worth it...
_________________
Scott
ADK
home of the "Kentucky Fried DAW"

[ilpadrone]

[ilpadrone]

[jcschild]

yes all 3 have been win7 with trim.
well no first was Vista
OCZ, then Mushkin IO and mushkin Callisto now.

i actually bought perfect disk to deal with the "garbage" one of the very few that can defrag SSD correctly.
_________________
Scott
ADK
home of the "Kentucky Fried DAW"

[pj geerlings]

Some random thoughts

The reason a Rotating Media drive tends to "slow" down with age is that the inner tracks are recorded at about one half the speed of the outer tracks - search for Zone Bit Recording for more info

SSDs suffer from something called Write Amplification - this is an obscure way of saying that for every write you do at least one more write has to be done to log where the data lands. If you write the drive at odd data boundaries and/or odd block sizes the write amplification is on the order of 4X. It does make 'em slow for writes for sure ...

There are a limited number of write cycles for both SSDs and Rotational Media Drives - each for different reasons. It turns out there are a limited number of read cycles for SSDs.

All that said, I still feel pretty comfortable recommending SSDs for sample storage and Rotational Media for the rest.

peace y'all
pj

[ilpadrone]

[pj geerlings]

[ilpadrone]

Thanks for the info again - it helps understand the whole SSD thing a touch more.

All still running fine here on mine, and am glad the drive has a 3 year warranty.
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Phenom II X6 1055T, Windows 7
Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H, 8GB DDR2, UAD-1
Nvidia NVS290 dual DVI to 2 x Samsung S2443 24in TFTs at 1920x 1200, 1 x Intel X25-V system drive, 2 x SATA 2 Samsung HDs

[Fivetowers]

If you are interested in HW performance, here is it the ultimate Performance Test for Cubase 5 Systems:
http://www.moar.net/cubasetest

Please post your results!
Ciao
5T