W7 Users willing to pay (extra) for the manual?

[markino]

Maybe the cost of a manual is too high, will you pay an extra for it if Steinberg printed it?
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Windows Vista sp1, Athlon X2 64, 4GB ram, 512MB ATI video card.

[Neil Wilkes]

Yes.
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www.opusproductions.com
Nuendo 3, 4 & 5, Surround Editions, DTS/DD Encoders, WaveLab 5, 6 & 7, Sonic Scenarist SD & DVD-Audio Creator, DTS-HD MAS, RME HDSP9652 & 3 ADI-8 DS, WK Audio ID, ASUS Commando, Q6700CPU, 2Gb RAM, SCSI subsystem, 5 Adam A7 monitors etc.

[kj]

I absolutely agree: yes I would buy and pay for an extra but extensive manual!

... as I do for MS Word, or MS Access, or for my digital reflex camera, just to get more out of it and to go into depth.
... as other people would do for their car ...

although standard manuals are provided for the above !

Jean

[Paul Bryce]

I'm not even upgrading my WL6 until/unless there's a printed manual.

I've had WL since the beginning but without a manual for WL7, which is a necessity for me, I'm going to wait.
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House Of Trees Music Productions.

[Vocalpoint]

[Vocalpoint]

[markino]

@Vocalpoint

Hello,

Absolutely, pay to write the manual, otherwise wouldn't make any sense.
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Windows Vista sp1, Athlon X2 64, 4GB ram, 512MB ATI video card.

[Vocalpoint]

[John Reid]

Well ... here's the first video tutorial, so there's definitely a market:
https://www.askvideo.com/product_info.php?cPath=89&products_id=278&osCsid=37c7783e47265f3ebb7614b461a52557

Still not the same as a decent manual but as already stated, there's no point in printing out the existing PDF or online help ... it needs to be on a par with the WL6 manual.
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C5.5.2 x64/x86 | WL7.0.1.522 | HSO | eLC 6.1.4.1047 | W7x64 Q6600 4GB | RME RayDAT + MOTU 828MkII FW + Behringer ADA8000 | AlphaTrack

[wizardofice]

Yes I would be willing to pay a reasonable fee for a proper manual. PDF or printed. (I prefer pdf)

Main point is a PROPER manual not a copy of the silly help system. A real manual like we had for version 6.

As others have said I want to upgrade to the full version but cannot (and will not) with no manual.

I truly find it mind boggling that a company who has made a reputation with software would even consider releasing a product with no manual. But this can be fixed. I am waiting for the day that it is announced.
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Custom PC with Asus MB M3A78-CM, AMD Quad 4 940 3.1Ghz, 8 G ram, 4 HDs at 750 G each, win 7, Win Vista 64 home, and Win XP home, dual monitors, Cubase 5.5, Wavelab essentials 6, Soundforge 9, CD Archetect, Ozone 4, Melodyne Plugin, Autotune evo, AVOX, Addictive Drums, HSO, Outer Limits, Vocaloid Miriam, T-racks, Amplitube 3, liquid mix, Sampletank 2, Focusrite Saphire pro 40, IK multimedia ARC, Frontier Alphatrack, KRK monitors, Bigknob, Emu PK6, Microkorg, Aphex C2, DBX 166, Voicetone correct, voicetone double, voicetone create, Digitech RP500, POD, 100 miles of cables and a room full of guitars.

[wizardofice]

[Arjan P]

[wizardofice]

I agree. If you actually have to pay for something that should have been included, then a printed version should be what you get....with a downloadable pdf also available.
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Custom PC with Asus MB M3A78-CM, AMD Quad 4 940 3.1Ghz, 8 G ram, 4 HDs at 750 G each, win 7, Win Vista 64 home, and Win XP home, dual monitors, Cubase 5.5, Wavelab essentials 6, Soundforge 9, CD Archetect, Ozone 4, Melodyne Plugin, Autotune evo, AVOX, Addictive Drums, HSO, Outer Limits, Vocaloid Miriam, T-racks, Amplitube 3, liquid mix, Sampletank 2, Focusrite Saphire pro 40, IK multimedia ARC, Frontier Alphatrack, KRK monitors, Bigknob, Emu PK6, Microkorg, Aphex C2, DBX 166, Voicetone correct, voicetone double, voicetone create, Digitech RP500, POD, 100 miles of cables and a room full of guitars.

[markino]

Please someone help me do the math:

1) How many users could be interested?

2) What could be the price of the manual?

Just trying to figure out.

I think Steinberg should consider it seriously, it could be an added (necessary) worth for W7.
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Windows Vista sp1, Athlon X2 64, 4GB ram, 512MB ATI video card.

[S-EH]

Seriously make an poll here at this forum.

regards S-EH
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PC & Mac, WL 7.01, 6.1.1, Cubase 5.5.2, 4.5.2, RME Fireface 800, Digi 96/8 PAD, UAD-1, Plextor Premium, PX-810 SA and Sony DRU-500A etc

[GregTheGrate]

Yes
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GregTheGrate

[greggybud]

I'm beginning to think this is the time for a 3rd party to come to the rescue with a detailed 900+ page manual. It wouldn't be that hard to revise/alter the WL6 manual and add maybe 200 extra pages of features reflected inWL7.

[PotionBrother]

Speaking as someone who has designed/coded/supported (non-audio) applications and written documentation for many years - a few comments: -

1) Since I bought WL7 I have barely touched it and still use WL6.
2) WL7 encompassed some very major procedural and interface changes/'enhancements'.
3) Therefore WL7 needed documentation as least as good as WL6 (which is a lot better than average).
4) The WL7 documentation isn't just bad, it's dire - totally inadequate, almost as bad as you'd expect from Native Instruments (e.g. the Kontakt 2 manual only containing screenshots from Kontakt 1), or (from the non-audio world) IBM or BMC Software for certain of their products.
5) Therefore, I don't bother because I simply aint got the time to mess around on the web or here, trawling around for information that should have been provided in the first place. Writing good manuals isn't 'rocket science', although there's a methodology/philosophy involved, just as there is with anything else.

This bares all the hallmarks of a badly organised project team not thinking things through properly. Of course, I don't blame PG BTW, we can't expect him to do everything and I've no doubt that his actual code is very well commented indeed

But, to cut to the quick: Would I be prepared to pay extra for a decent manual? Probably not, although if it were a reasonable price I might be pursuaded. But I shudder to think how many new customers (whose entry level has been WL7) Steinberg have confused/annoyed because of this.
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Rain Element 2.34 Ghz Core 2 Duo, 4 Gb RAM Edirol UA101, Cubase 5.5, Wavelab 6 and 7, UAD-1e Extreme, UAD2 Duo, Kontakt 2, Guitar Rig 3, Express Keyboards, Gigastudio, Rebirth

[PG]

The original writers of "WaveLab <= 6" manuals were/are not available anymore.
I/Steinberg have got to analyse user feedback to know what are the most difficult parts to grasp, and improve the existing material.
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Philippe

[Arjan P]

Philippe, sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but there is no existing material. Yes, there is the online help system, and the pdf made of it, but that is not a manual - and it never will be.

I think greggybud makes a very good suggestion. Take the existing WL6 manual source files, have them updated by some knowledgeable technical writers - no reason these should be the original writers - and add the new specific WL7 material. Take it to the printer and voila, new manual. Indeed, no rocket science.
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Luck, Arjan
_________________ << WL 6.1 (and 7), Cubase 5.5, XPpro SP3, PentiumD-2.8G, PX-880SA >>
----- There's only 10 types of people: those who do, and those who don't understand bits -----

[daved]

Philippe -

The big holes in the current materials are:
1) organization - it's designed for non-linear access, thus provides no solid overview of how the application is designed to work together, or any hint of useful workflows. And along those lines...
2) tutorials/examples are entirely M.I.A. making transition nearly impossible for non-WL newbies and mac users. For many people, especially musically oriented creative types, tutorials are the backbone of experiential learning. You've eliminated an entire mode of learning, that happens to be ideal for a significant portion of your audience. (I teach audio production and audio design at a major university, in their conservatory and design programs).
3) screen-caps, illustrations and diagrams depicting the areas under discussion are not optional for complex apps. It's impossible to use these materials without the application open, and often even this is insufficient, when the text veers off to reference dialogs and controls that are frequently invisible (due to one's initial workspace selection).
4) cross-references to conventional (i.e. NOT WL7) terminology, e.g. "bounce", or the more universal "export".

Addressing the issues above would make the existing materials more useful. As things stand the new users experience is akin to being dropped off in the middle of a supermarket on another planet, where the labels are in another language and the goods are packaged in sealed, opaque boxes. Everything in the world might be here, but none of it's very accessible.

-d-

[PG]

@daved: thanks for your detailed inputs
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Philippe

[Bomac]

Hello All,

I have just read through all the comments on this topic and suddenly I don’t feel nearly as stupid and lost as I did when I put forward the topic “More Information” the other day. Over the weeks and months I have seen and read much by the above contributing names, many of whom are clearly accomplished users of WL, and here "THEY" are with a similar problem, albeit at a different level - lack of detailed information and comprehensive explanation.

Even without a small fortune to back me up, in the face of my frustrations, I would seriously consider paying extra for a proper manual which I could study and perhaps, eventually learn how to make WL sing for me.

Bomac.
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Win XP Pro Wavelab Essential 6

[Oliver.Lucas]

Yes.
PDF would be OK for me.
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latest Nuendo on various machines

[kj]

Let's take the example of Microsoft Word:

I work with this program since ages (since I left Wodperfevt/DOS); there is a very comprehensive help function built in,
recently enhanced by internet search abilities.

But I prefer and buy on a regular basis third party books like "Word xxxx InsideOut" (€ 37.99) to get the most out of the program.

I do absolutely the same for Microsoft Access (and would do the same for other programs if needed).
And I do also the same for my digital camera to get a better understanding than provided by the user manual.

It is a shame that nobody does understand that there is a market for well done third party books/tutorials for programs like Wavelab 7!


Best regards
Jean

[Southae]

Hi, Folks!

Although I haven't loaded my copy of WL7, I have been struggling (well, not as much as others, 'cause I got a 'quickie' 1 hour traiing session that covered the basics of the "ribbon" and some of the major new features) in MS-Office 2007 used at my "day job". There's a bit of a volume difference however (no pun intended). MS-Office users number in the millions worldwide, WL users are probably considerably less than 1/10th as many, perhaps reaching 50K users worldwide(?), if that. If you really want the combination of tutorial and reference manual (I'd settle for a pdf download, and a nicety would be the ability to "link" it into WL Help), then I suspect it's going to cost about a $150 to $250 USD per copy to revise and renovate the WL6 manual to provide both a tutorial on audio, and a reference to WL7's many features (Good Tech Writers don't come cheap!).

However, there may be a couple of alternatives available:
1. Provide feedback to Philippe similar to what daved has done. If you find specific issues that you struggle with, bring them to the forum and alert Philippe to specifics! This will permit him and the folks at Steinberg / Yamaha to expand and illuminate the existing on-line help files through iterative improvements and minor updates to the existing software.
2. Rely on third parties to generate "how to's" or "WL7 for Dummies" reference texts (videos "How to's" may likely be the prevalent solution).
3. A not insignificant issue is related to the technical sophistication of the users. Someone well versed in the technical aspects of audio and acoustics may find WL7 easier to use and understand. That said, as with any sophisticated piece of software, the learning curve is always very steep at first. And everyone has differing work flow processes that only complicate the issue.

Without major funding to implement what Microsoft did on Office (use focus groups and monitor real users doing real tasks to understand the majority of users' work flows), WL7 will not likely find an easy path to providing a comprehensive users' guide that will allow a wide spectrum of users from the newbies through technical "heavies" to understand the ins and outs of this very sophisticated software without significant cost impact. A similar situation exists with most major audio mastering or production software systems from Pro-Tools to Sequoia, and their costs reflect this. WL is an incredibly sophisticated tool that has tried to manage costs for all users across the spectrum (again, no pun intended), but when this is done, there are shortcuts and certain "extras" that cannot be incorporated simply due to the costs of inclusion, without significantly raising the price of the tool, based on the anticipated number of sales to establish a profit.

As usual, this is just my 2 bits. I believe WL will receive slow but steady improvements to the user help. But they will be iterative based on cost and sales / marketing constraints. If you wish to accelerate the process, provide specific, constructive feedback to assist the authors of the software to make it more comprehensible for users.
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Just my 2 bits, 0 and 1!

AES

Dual 3.0GHz Xeons on ASUS PC-DL Deluxe
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Schoeps, DPA, Royer, Sony, and AKG Microphones
Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro
Over 4TB of Growing Storage! [GAD!]
And AWAAAYYYY We GO!

[Vocalpoint]

[wizardofice]

""Without major funding to implement what Microsoft did on Office (use focus groups and monitor real users doing real tasks to understand the majority of users' work flows), WL7 will not likely find an easy path to providing a comprehensive users' guide""


I call bs on this one.....if you can't take the heat get outta the kitchen. If you are going to sell programs, especially expensive ones, you have to provide more than just the program.
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Custom PC with Asus MB M3A78-CM, AMD Quad 4 940 3.1Ghz, 8 G ram, 4 HDs at 750 G each, win 7, Win Vista 64 home, and Win XP home, dual monitors, Cubase 5.5, Wavelab essentials 6, Soundforge 9, CD Archetect, Ozone 4, Melodyne Plugin, Autotune evo, AVOX, Addictive Drums, HSO, Outer Limits, Vocaloid Miriam, T-racks, Amplitube 3, liquid mix, Sampletank 2, Focusrite Saphire pro 40, IK multimedia ARC, Frontier Alphatrack, KRK monitors, Bigknob, Emu PK6, Microkorg, Aphex C2, DBX 166, Voicetone correct, voicetone double, voicetone create, Digitech RP500, POD, 100 miles of cables and a room full of guitars.

[purcellj]

There was great anticipation for nearly two years regarding the arrival of WL7 from both the PC and Mac camps each with their own particular reasons.

I suspect because of this the sales of PC upgrades and Mac cross platform and new users versions has been quite high. If they do not address the issue of a proper manual, either printed or pdf, they will not be selling many WL8s and beyond in the future.

Jim

[Neil Wilkes]