W7 Users willing to pay (extra) for the manual?

greggybud · Member Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 511 Location: Eugene, OR

I still think the best method would be to use the EXCELLENT WL6 manual as the base for a WL7 manual. The WL6 manual is well organized, detailed, and comprehensive. Of the many programs I use, the WL6 manual is one of the best.

Then go page by page and simply revise, add, or change the features that need changing. I think there are a lot of things that are the same, or maybe just slightly altered.

Vocalpoint · Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject:

PG · Moderator Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 3396

>> V7 is a 180 turn away from V6 in a LOT of areas....

I don't see things like this at all. I could summarize like this: the only big change is that everything that was packed inside a window is now presented in several windows... Hmm, oversimplified, I know Cool

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Vocalpoint · Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject:

Arjan P · Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:55 pm Post subject:

Southae · Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:27 am Post subject:

OK, Folks!

Let's get down to budgeting an estimate for a WL7 manual update:

Assuming a total revision, based on the 600+ page WL6 manual is to be performed. Estimating an average of 30 minutes per page this works out to 18,000 minutes or 300 hours of work (about forty 8-hour days). Typical "burdened" charges for trained technical writers, familiar with their material is around $250 per hour. So, we're talking about $75,000 USD to revise the existing WL 6 manual. This doesn't include any writer "software learning curve", publishing or distribution costs, and doesn't probably incorporate tutorial type re-writes that will likely add another 30% to the overall time and costs. So, an overall "guesstimate" for manual update cost is $100,000 USD.

Assuming 10,000 users(!) who purchase WL7, that breaks down to about $10 to $15 USD per manual, so far. Not a budget busting number, but one that likely would have delayed release of WL7 for probably another 6 months to a year. Why so long? People here are complaining about how difficult the new version is to use, and the tech writers face the same issues, so the software author(s) {PG, et al.} would not only have had to update the software, but spend considerable time and travel (including additional costs) working with the tech writers helping them interpret and author incorporation of the changes (and this further adds to the support costs for manual update).

Sound expensive? Try explaining only in writing how one ties one's shoe laces, a task most of us can do with our eyes closed; and then try to follow those instructions exactly! You'll begin to gain a great deal of respect for what Technical Writers require for skills!

So, $50 USD for the manual sounds like a reasonable price to incorporate profit for the publishers, but it would have been perhaps another year in the making (and may still be!).

Based on customer impatience for an updated WL software version, Steinberg / Yamaha likely made a marketing decision to release WL7 in it's current form.

Obviously, the hue and cry over lack of a tutorial style manual, will likely move them in the direction of generating a significant revision to a manual to be made available (for a fee) at a future date... if other entreprennurial types don't succeed at doing it first either as "WL7 for Dummies" or as a video tutorial.

The appropriate approach to Technical Manual writing is to apply the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!) method approach; assuming the reader is an absolute novice, and educate them through the manual to the finer points of audio and WL, along with a major cross referenced index to permit more experienced users to quickly search and find specific information.

Perchance, that might be the overall solution to the issue: Hire a third party firm of technical writers to revise the existing WL6 manual, and sell a "Steinberg Authorized" WL7 manual for users interested in purchasing a hard- or soft-copy; or get a bunch of folks with the time and skills here on the forum to do the same!?!? Any takers?
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donx · Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:29 am Post subject:

I would like to apply for the $250 per hour, job.
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chase · Member Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 429

fenderchris2 · Junior Member Joined: 01 Feb 2010 Posts: 37

Steinberg - please produce a proper printed or PDF manual - you will then see the sales of WL-7 and your customer approval go through the roof - look upon it as a Public Relations excercise. From my point of view, PDF would be fine - I could then print out just the bits that I need to study away from the computer.

You've released a product that is receiving very widespread dissapproval, to the benefit of your competitors.

While I'm at it, why, after about 4 years of development (which I guess involved a complete re-write) is WL-7 not 64-bit? - 64-bit did not happen yesterday - it's been around for some time now!

Nuendo, Cubase, HalionSonic are all 64-bit - why does WL-7 not fit in with this company strategy after all this time?
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wizardofice · Member Joined: 05 Sep 2009 Posts: 690 Location: Florida

As a consumer the cost of producing a manual does not concern me. If poor planning and management allowed the company to forget or just ignore an important part of a major undertaking then either retrain those responsible, or remove them from the responsibility and move forward and take the budget hit and move on. Correct the problem and then make improvements in your processes so you do not have to take a loss or experience an over budget in the future. You do not pass this expense caused by poor planning and management on to the customer. Everyone knows an undertaking such as a new program of this complexity will require documentation. At this point the problem is known and the only concern should be how to quickly rectify it.

Does anyone remember "new Coke" One of the biggest gaffs by a major corporation of just expecting the public to accept a major change and realizing in short time it was a mistake. the Cocacola company did quickly rectify the situation and it actually became a boost to the sales after bringing back what the customers wanted. I am sure many learned from such a thing. Anything can be fixed. The program is a well thought out program and is well respected and will be a success easily with just a few corrections. A lot of us are waiting with great expectations.
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wizardofice · Member Joined: 05 Sep 2009 Posts: 690 Location: Florida

chase · Member Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 429

As I said on 19 Sep, in the topic "WaveLab 7 Documentation - questions & answers",
http://cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=140246&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 ...

wizardofice · Member Joined: 05 Sep 2009 Posts: 690 Location: Florida

I have an idea....give me the full version of wavelab 6 with a cd burner that will work well in win 7 64 bit and I will pay full price for the full version.
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Southae · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:37 pm Post subject:

Hello again, Folks!

My estimate was about $50 USD (~37 EU's, or 30 GBP) for a manual, which by my guesstimate would take about a year to publish in an e-version (alias, portable document format or PDF).

I'm not kidding about the tying shoe laces thing! (It's a typical Technical Writing 101 homework exercise.) Try it, and you'll quickly gain a great deal of respect for what good tech. writers do, and why they're worth the kind of money they get paid. Note I listed the rate of $250 USD per hour as "burdened", which includes a company office, furnishings, benefit coverages, etc. The actual person in the seat gets about half that, unless they are an independent tech. writer that works by the hour. Then they do claim a rate close to $250/hr. but have to cover all their own benefit costs out of that stipend.

I guess the ultimate question (which I'm really not yet qualified to answer as I haven't loaded my copy of WL7 up yet), is how much of WL7 requires basic audio training, and how much of WL7 requires application familiarity to apply these basic audio principles to mastering? WL shouldn't be an Audio Engineering Tutorial (there are a goodly number of these available elsewhere for reasonable prices, e.g. Bob Katz's Mastering for Audio), but WL7 does need to provide some basic insights as to how to find and perform various mastering tasks. From what I've been noting in these forums, it lacks on both counts, (with appropriately in my mind) very limited basic audio tutorials, but it also lacks egregiously in "user friendliness" to understand where the mastering tools have now been relocated on-screen to accomplish various tasks and workflows. And the on-line help files evidently don't provide helpful solutions unless you already know the answer, or are familiar enough with audio engineering principles to ask the appropriate question!

Have a look at this site, http://www.rane.com/digi-dic.html , and if you don't understand at least 50% of the terms, then that may explain your difficulties in working with WL7. Rane has created an audio dictionary, and if you're technically challenged by some of this audio terminology, then that might, might(?), explain the difficulties being encountered by folks using WL7. OTH, it just may be that the software updates and screen location / explanations are unfortunately arcane enough to baffle and lead many to initially struggle with the interfaces (which do seem to be the crux of the user complaints).

If such is the case, then something should be done to rectify this situation, as there appear to be many digruntled users of WL7 who sorely need a good and worthy manual to assist them in navigating this great Mastering tool more efficiently. And through word of mouth and networking quickly decry the problems they have encountered in this version of WL7.

I'm not sure if Philippe can actually do much about it at this juncture, but Steinberg / Yamaha should seriously consider either generating a proper user manual as soon as possible to head off potential negative "good will" which will impact ALL of Steinberg's products whether justified or not; or recommend some "basic audio" instruction books or on-line tutorials to head off word-of-mouth negative reports about their software. There market is so small, that such "word of mouth" travels very fast through many active and potential users.

I do find it curious that some folks are having little difficulties using WL7 and are thrilled with it, while others appear to be indeed struggling. As mentioned heretofore, I've encountered similar commentaries about migrating from MS-Office 2003 to later versions. Perhaps a "decoder chart" would resolve the problem by cross-correlating the majority of WL6 functions to their newer WL7 counterparts, and that might be quickly provided on the Steinberg site in downloadable format for registered users to access. Certainly, something needs to be done to assist both new and seasoned users to adapt more quickly to this version.

Just thinking out loud here, but some points should be seriously considered.
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PotionBrother · Member Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 452 Location: London

I agree. Any comprehensive WL7 manual shouldn't be a tutorial any more than the WL6 manual was/is. This app' needs and deserves something a lot better than it has, though. There simply isn't enough there to get even an experienced user of other app's or earlier versions of Wavelab started in anything other than a rather frustrating fashion. The new interface may be powerful (potentially) but IMO, it's anything but intuitive. As it is, rather than end up in a bad mood, as I said earlier, I just go to WL6.

I couldn't help noting that just about the only 'con' in an otherwise 'pro'-laden SOS review ('glowing' would be an understatement, I had to don a welding mask just get past the first paragraph) was about the lack of a paper manual.
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donx · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:01 am Post subject:

The online webinars http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=141782 are definitely good ways to get up and running. More of them accompanied by exerts from the existing help files would be a good education tool.
I'm sure that every question PG responds to, should be fully described and included in future documentation.
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Vocalpoint · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:44 pm Post subject:

markino · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject:

+ 1 for Vocalpoint,

Totally right, great PG is providing users invaluable information, LOST in the various threads!
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PG · Moderator Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 3396

..."Half lost", because I take the questions into account for future improvements.
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Vocalpoint · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject:

PG · Moderator Joined: 29 Dec 2004 Posts: 3396

I meant, improvements to make certain things more obvious, obvious enough not to need a manual Wink

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Vocalpoint · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject:

wizardofice · Member Joined: 05 Sep 2009 Posts: 690 Location: Florida

bullmoon · Member Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 101 Location: ATL, GA

What I am starting to discover is there is far more decent documentation that I originally thought. It is just not included with the download - possibly not on the DVD either. The WL7 PDF is pretty helpful as is the "6 to 7" doc and I think had those been immediately and obviously available to me without having to search about and discover them, my initial impressions would have been a lot different - that and if I had waited for the .01 update - rather than compounding the new interface confusion with a few bugs that made it even more confusing.

At any rate, the doc issue is not nearly as bad as it seemed. Now I just have a lot to read, but it seems like it will be a big help. Perhaps after reading through it all and getting some needed fixes, the interface will seem a little better as well.

I like the "New Coke" analogy...and hated "New Coke" - didn't want New Coke. Maybe the same for Wavelab - I have been using for years because I liked it, not because I wanted it to be Pepsi or whatever. So I find myself trying to get it back to "Classic Wavelab" so I can get work done. Figuring out what bits of the new UI I can shut down to de-clutter it and get it back to the essentials of working with a CD or an Audio File or a Montage, without a million tabbed giblets of windows everywhere. That seems like it will help a lot - more Classic taste, less filling. Wink

Then I can re-clutter it as I need to later once I get a feel for what all is there.

Some things I am sure will be a lot better once I get used to them - Drag&Drop will be a long needed update and if nothing else had changed but D&D, I'd probably think $99 for just that would be OK.

I reckon along with a few gaffes and the wild new interface, just a lot to take in at once, but I think it will come around - I hope it will - WL is a big part of my workflow.
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stingray · Member Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 215

I know what posters here mean about feeling overwhelmed by WL7 but may I suggest something here which might help. Rather than attempting to make WL7 behave like WL6, how about just start afresh with no pre-conceptions?

Instead of setting up a complicated layout in the Audio file workspace, try starting with something simple instead. For example, try closing all tool windows and just leave the audio file view with maybe the Master section docked to the left (or right) and perhaps the VU meters docked at the lower edge of the screen. And that's all. If WL7 is looking all cluttered up with different tool windows then just close them, if you don't need to see them. Maybe move the window switcher to the upper right of the screen and make it semi-transparent. You may not even need the window switcher and if you don't want to see it then you can de-activate it in Global Settings. When you are happy with the layout save it as a preset in Workspace / Layouts. Now this is the whole point of the new interface... the user can set up the interface to suit their own particular way of working with Wavelab, and save this as a layout preset. It's more flexible than WL6. If you never use the Audio Montage you need never go into the Audio Montage workspace. If you want to use the switcher but you don't wish to see the audio montage button then you can de-activate it in Global Settings.

So really what I am saying here is that WL7 gives you more freedom of choice. You actually have the choice to simplify your life and display less on the screen.

Now I agree that printed documentation is perhaps extremely useful, but software changes so quickly nowadays that it is hard to keep printed documentation up to date. If a printed manual was there I would use it. However, IMHO we perhaps need to be aware of the whole concept of WL7 and where it is heading. This is software which is intended to be intuitive and easy to use despite its enormous power. Like any piece of complicated software there is a learning curve at first. I think once you master the idea that you are in control, and you decide what you want the interface to be then you are over the first hurdle and things get a bit easier.

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